I will of course be playing the devil's advocate (hehe ... ironic considering BH 5)
So this poll is about the most TRAGIC character.
HAL
considered himself a victim of his 'condition' and we watched his moment to moment struggle with bloodlust and the "monster" inside him. He adopted painstakingly, routines to keep him and others safe.. for years and years and years. The tragedy factor is rachetted up pretty high.
He is the victim of a tragic childhood also.. so much so that willingly gave his life to become a vampire.
BUT it was still willingly.
and for the rest of the 500 years... he is a serial kiler who delights in toying with his prey, has "killed men and women and children".. and many many times. Can we truly think Bad Hal moments are tragic even if they are a result of a condition he has fought to control?
ALBERT FLIGHT
Albert also has no parentage to speak of and we can assume was destitute without guidance at an early age.
He turned to petty crime and was taken off the streets by corrupt Jedediah Shine. We can assume he had a choice about whether to accept the punishment of the law or allow himself to be taken in by Shine, but we dont know he was aware of the level of corruption he was entering into. He is definitely a victim of a high level of manipulation by Shine - not easy for him to resist with his lack of experience, his youth and his isolation.
However, he did poison people and we can assume there were deaths. so in present day he was accessory to murder, but in the past, he was active in that (although his youth and destitution may have lead him to depserate measures and perhaps he was unaware of consequences.)
Flight has become the victim of an incredibly powerful and evil man, but even within the context he was trying to do good work, and truly felt shame ALL of the time... there are no Bad Al moments now.
Bad Hal tragic? No! He's glorious!! The only tragic thing about bad hal is that he will, inevitably, revert, and become consumed by guilt!
The tragedy of good hal is not only the guilt of his past actions, but the inevitability of his 'bad hal' future.... It seems impossible for him to absolve himself.
It does sway the argument very much towards Flight!
Dispite saying before that I would inevitably vote for Hal...I still haven't actually voted! And, if I'm honest, I'm very much undecided.
There are a lot of strong arguments in Flight's favour....but, then again, Flight's future is still very much hanging in the balance, and could go either way. The most tragic thing about Hal - the tragedy which links both good and bad - is the inevitablity of his future...
Good points fifi, both 'good' Hal and Flight wnat to be good men though.. so that gives me equal hope, though one could say, Hal's 'condition' is an inevitable conclusion.....
BUT in hindsight, Hal vanquished that demon good and proper when he resisted Natasha's blood when he was in the height of withdrawal in BH 5.07, it was actually the rejection from Alex and other people's beliefs that pushed him over to the 'dark side'. I guess the same could be said of Flight too.... his fate is down to others now.
The root of Hal's tragedy is his being a vampire and I cannot help but point out he was a willing recruit at the time. Flight seems more of a victim of manipulation.
-- Edited by domino on Tuesday 1st of April 2014 10:22:12 AM
Interesting that you think Flight was more vulnerable to Shine's 'manipulation' at the point of arrest, than Hal was when he chose to be turned.... I think that being at the point of death probably makes you pretty vulnerable. And vampires aren't generally known for their alturistic natures....I'm sure the army surgeon - regardless of the fact that he apparently gave Hal a choice - was as manipulative as Shine....
I have to say, that Flight is my fav DAMO detectice, Hal is my fav character Damien has played and I actually thought this for long while.
Hal is very tragic character, in all sense. He's playing games between good and evil all the time BUT
so is Flight. In a different way, but they are very similar in that sense.
Hal tells little about his history to his friends, but he tells something and trust them to know his horrible past. He's having hard time controlling himself, like a drug addict, but otherwise there's a good person inside him. He's not trying to fix things because his past, but because of his future.
Flight keeps his history well hidden, cause the price is too high to pay. Until the very end when he wants to end his hell he's living in. Hal embraces his instead. Flight goes broken when he finds out he cannot fix harm he had done, recently and long time ago.. It broke my heart to watch that last episode of Ripper Street. It was so sad story.
So I will vote for Flight and it was very hard for me, considering that Hal is my #1 character ever but in this sense, I think Flight is most tragic one.
I know it's completely beside the point....but can I just say how much I love this photoset.
glad you like it fifi the selection and placement was very deliberate if you think about what is happening to both characters in thse scenes..... and what emotions?
Oh yes! I totally got the mirrored emotions thing.....but, although I know the Hal scenes (too) well, I haven't rewatched Ripper Street since it came off iplayer (I now have the dvd and need to rectify that!) so, until I thought about it, I hadn't really appreciated how much these scenes have in common!
I hadn't made my way over here but for once this was a simple vote for me - Flight.
You have all pointed out wonderful arguments both ways, very insightful, especially about Hal.
For me it came down to the fact that while Hal is extremely tragic: his childhood, his struggle, his guilt, I feel that there are times when he revels in what he is, who he is. He is a cold blooded murderer. He truly wants to be good, the guilt and remorse are real, but ultimately he can compartmentalize it by reverting back to Bad Hal and giving into his addiction. And I'm not convinced that all the evil in Hal is due to the vampire, I think some of it is born out of his own sense of selfishness and ambition.
Flight also had a tragic childhood, orphaned, street urchin, he struggles with his crimes and guilt, but I don't see that inherent streak of malice in him. I honestly feel he made bad choices out of necessity, and by the end of what we see of his story, he seems ready to stop making bad choices, he's looking for guidance in the way of Reid, he's choosing to live with all the consequences. I don't see the selfishness and ambition that Hal has.
Plus Flight looks like a puppy, so eager for Reid's approval at times, and looking like he was kicked puppy at the end. Even in the set you picked Domino (I second fifi's love of it), in each mirrored scene Flight looks more pathetic than Hal!
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whimsy, I am with you... won't repeat my argument from earlier but it pretty much is the same as yours, and also, according to Hal's prequel, he made the choice to become a vampire, even though he was escaping from the most hideous of lives... which is ultimately deeply tragic.... his choice in that moment led him down a path which resulted in hundreds even thousands of lost lives... and more of his over 500 years were spent being the monster he resisted being the rest of the time.
His struggle during his 'good Hal' periods is so immense... and beyond any struggle a human being can have.. which is why i think the argument for Hal being the most tragic character over Flight is so powerful.. Flight could never win in terms of the depth of that struggle....and I really am drawn to the whole vampire/ pathos / who is the bigger monster humanity or the vampire.....but ultimately, if we are going to talk about the full Hal picture..... how can anyone turn a blind eye to the acts of that vampire.... ?
I thought about this for....too long. It was a tough choice, and I admit that when I did vote it was impulsive, but I will stand by my choice of Hal – and now feel compelled to defend it!
Yes...Hal revelled in being a vampire. But I see very little sign of guilt, remorse or, indeed, humility in Flight when he first arrived at H Division. He was enjoying the presitige of the position that Shine had given him. Initially he may not have been aware of the depth of Shine's malevolence, but by the end of ep2 he knows that Shine killed Sgt Linklater, and is responsible for Merrick's death....and yet by the start of ep3 he is sporting a rather smart new suit...which has presumably been funded by Shine, rather than his constable's pay. In ep7, when we first see him meet Shine, he behaves as if they are old chums. It could be questioned whether the 'good work' which he did at H Division is to make amends for past deeds, or to aid his own promotion.
Hal is fighting his own DNA...
Flight had the opportunity to wipe the slate clean, and start afresh by leaving with Eveyln, but he chose to continue to work for Shine.
Hal embraced the opportunity which Leo offered him, even though it involved spending 2 years tied to a chair, and another 50+ of self imprisonment in the vain hope that his routines would help to keep his better nature in control once Leo had (inevitably) gone.
Hal was prepared to sacrifice himself in an attempt to destroy the old ones....but was entirely unable to resist their hold over him.
Flight betrayed Merrick (however unwittingly), Hinchcliffe, Abberline and everyone at H Division. I believe that his remorse is genuine....but he did leave it a bit late! And (as I said before) at the end of the series he does still have a chance of salvation...
In S5 of BH, Hal is trying his best to be 'good', but is manipulated by Hatch and Rook, betrayed by Natasha, and ulitmately let down by both Tom and Alex, who – despite their assertions that they take responsibility for him – both choose to believe the worst of him. At the end of the series he finally feels free of his 'curse', but in the extra scene he is prepared to face up to Hatch in order to try to 'save the world', even though he knows that means he will have to return to the constant struggle which he has with himself....
Perhaps what swayed me most is the fact that I love 'bad Hal' - and Hal loves himself when he is bad....and yet, in order to safeguard humanity he chooses the struggle, to live with the guilt and the self loathing in the desperate hope that one day he will win....
OOH.. fabulous arguments fifi, your campaign speech is deeply peruasive!
One thing that I just cannot sweep under the carpet though........... "I have killed men and women and children, so just think how easy it will be to kill you."
I always wondered if Flight didn't leave with Evelyn because he was trying to be honourable towards her. I like to think the best of Flight! He knows that he is not the man she thinks he is and leaving with her would mean his whole life with her would be a lie (perhaps he has had enough of all the lies). Also perhaps it's Reid he wants to continue working for, not Shine. He's been given a job to do by Reid/Abberline and wants to finish it because he wants their respect. Does he cry because he is upset she is leaving because he cared for her or is he crying for himself and the life that he has chosen? He could have found love and been happy but because his life is one of secrets and lies he can't let himself get close to anyone for fear of being found out.
I think he is getting extra money from Shine but I also think the smart suit is Flight trying to fit in with the people around him. His new suit is more smart and sober than the 'flashier' grey suit he wore at the start and suits the style of H Division. I think it is part of Flight's character that he wants people to see him a certain way and that he changes his personality to blend in with the people around him.
But I agree completely that the reasons for his guilt/remorse are complex. Does he confess to Reid to save himself because he knows Shine will kill him if he doesn't have Reid's help? His increasingly desperate confessions to the priest reveal his increasing feelings of guilt and shame but the decisions he makes are always wrong. He could have told Reid much earlier on that he was Shine's spy and I am sure Reid would have helped him. Trying to kill Shine is not the behaviour of someone who is making well thought out decisions.
I think Flight's tragedy is that he is alone. There is nobody who is really on his side. I'm sure that if he was loved he wouldn't have been so vulnerable to being manipulated by Shine. The man he put his trust in just used and manipulated him and the man who Flight was initially wary of becomes someone he can trust but then Flight betrays both men and is 'destroyed' as a result.
I'm not sure if this makes Flight more tragic though....
OOH.. fabulous arguments fifi, your campaign speech is deeply peruasive!
One thing that I just cannot sweep under the carpet though........... "I have killed men and women and children, so just think how easy it will be to kill you."
Hal's recruitment of Crumb, made with good intentions in a moment of vulnerablity, was a big mistake - which he recognised and tried to rectify...initially by tying him to a radiator (when he was let down by Tom and Alex's lack of faith in him) and then at the office (when Rook ulitimately took charge of Crumb) and again, later, when Crumb and Alan moved into HH (when Rook expected him to kill them). I agree entirely that the above is hard to ignore.....but it is surely tragic! His need to threated Crumb is a depserate attempt to rid himself of a responisiblity which he feels unable to deal with....he is circling the drain himself due to Hatch's machinations and the fact that his realtionship with Tom seems to be falling apart....
Rosie - I think the suit is about prestige...not fitting in - he looks better dressed than Drake who is his senior!
I agree that Flight's tragedy is that he is alone. But Evelyn knew he was lying to her...he could've come clean there and then, before they boarded the boat - it didn't need to be a relationship based on lies. Maybe something in his past means that he felt unable to trust in Evelyn's understanding, but he could've tried - she was leaving anyway so he had nothing to lose. Although he would've arrived in America with nothing but her. Poverty led him to commit bad deeds and perhaps, in his mind, it's better to bad and comfortably off than bad and hungry.
The more you think about Flight the more complex he becomes! I guess it's because we don't really know that much about him so we can only guess at his motivations. His poverty is probably the driving force for most of his actions. What happens to him is really sad but he has brought his downfall upon himself by making the wrong decision at vital points. How much choice he had we don't know but there were definitely points where he could have done the right thing much earlier. I guess we will only be able to truly judge whether he is the most tragic when / if we discover what ultimately happens to him.
My vote for Hal is based largely on the fact that I have far more optimism for Flight's future than Hal's....having seen the error of his ways it is entirely possible that Flight can enjoy a brighter future, whereas Hal's curse basically means his future will inevitably be as tragic as his past. I guess it could, however, still all go horribly wrong.....I just hope that we get to see the next chapter in his story so that we find out - and then maybe I'll change my mind!
-- Edited by fifi on Tuesday 22nd of April 2014 01:10:18 PM
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the selection and placement was very deliberate if you think about what is happening to both characters in thse scenes..... and what emotions? 
