Nope, sorry, I can't defend Hal. I love him to bits, I accept his lying as part of who he is, even excuse him for it most of the time, but even if there have been instances where his lies were benevolent, as you say telling Crumb he can have a full and happy life, as domino says, when he told Leo & Pearl to go through their doors... his reasoning for being a liar overall is for purely selfish reasons. He lies to Alex and Tom about being ok because he's embarrassed to admit he can't keep the bloodlust in control. I don't agree with Alex's assessment that he doesn't want to be clean. He lies to Annie when she requests it because he's afraid of loosing her. His greatest fear is loosing his support system and that's why he continually keeps information from everyone. To keep up his image, his mask. There is no benevolence there, unless you can argue that the potential body count that's being saved during his periods of sobriety are benevolent reasons. But, I see that as a secondary rationale.
Flight is tricky, because we want to believe he had good intentions through and through. From the little we know of his past, it's easy to extrapolate (or assume) that he had a hard early life and was driven to be in league with Shine because he was the only father figure in his life, and Flight was largely kept in the dark on Shine's character and activities. However, his reasons for lying are similar to Hal's, to keep up his image. He thinks he can do good to balance out the bad, but continually covers up for Shine even after he becomes aware of the full extent of Shine's terribleness. He had a chance to turn back when the jeweler came to say he'd found the thief, this is after he knew Shine had been involved in Merrick's death. But instead he covered his tracks. His lies to Evelyn were on the job - he wanted to succeed because it would help his advancement. You saw how eager he was when Abberline approached him with the undercover job.
So basically it turns out that overall Hal and Flight lie for basically the same reason Jack did - to keep up appearances. The difference to me is that the original motivation for Jack's actions - to plant evidence on a guilty party that was let go due to lack of evidence - was benevolent. The lying to Martha can also be seen as benevolent in a way. If he continued to pretend nothing happened, there could have been a chance that nothing would have been questioned. Martha pieced together his lie, because she knows him. She didn't say he was under disciplinary action, just that she had to pull a few strings (I assume just to keep the tracking info under wraps) and that HR told her he had holiday accumulated. She "suggested" he take it with the tone that this was an order from her, but he wasn't required to. He wasn't suspended officially. She was handling it her way, to send the message to him that while he is a good cop and she values him on the team, she doesn't want him to keep fucking up with procedure.
Anyway, that's my
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papillon... pamplemousse... bibliothèque... un baiser A lilt in his voice. Every sentence like music... #kisskisskiss A terrible beauty is born. Love me some #Jacksass
Jozie, I agree that there are big differences between Hal's lies when he is 'good' and when he is 'bad'. Most of his lies when he is good are to protect others from being hurt emotionally. When he is bad his lies are despicable. I'm thinking particularly of when he lies about the blood in the ritual to trap the devil. He knows that the ritual means the participants die and he doesn't care and just protects himself.
'Fraid I'm going to be really pedantic here....and no, domino - witholding the truth doesn't count as lying! It was your carefully worded question...with definitions. This question is 'who has the most well meaning/kindliest reason for telling lies'. For me withholding the truth is not the same as telling a lie! Telling a lie is active...withholding the truth is passive. But thank you for your example of Hal lying to Leo and Pearl....it was a very kind and selfless lie from Hal - but I'm still struggling to find any more!
Oh Jozie! I want to defend Hal too....but although he cares for his friends a great deal and I agree he wants to protect his friendships, when he lies it is almost always for for his benefit, not theirs. Much as it breaks my heart I have to agree entirely with whimsy's assessment of Hal! (except for the bit about Alex's view that he doesn't want to be clean....I agree with Alex there - but that's another discussion entirely!)
I broadly agree with what everyone says about Flight.....most of his lies are to save his own skin. But I was desperately trying to think of examples of when these characters had lied for 'well meaning' reasons....and however much lying to Evelyn might have been to his benefit professionally, I absolutely believe that he wanted to succeed in his job because he wanted to do good (maybe as recompense for his mistakes). And Rosie - while I agree that lying to Evelyn was not very kind to her, I think it was the truth in him that she responded to (although that might not make it right) and despite his deception of her being painful to him, he persued it for the greater good! I'm not sure this makes up for his other lies...but I do think examples of benevolent lies from all 3 of these characters are pretty thin on the ground!
Still basically feeling pretty undecided.....
If the question was who has the most benevolent reason for deception I would probably vote for Jack....but it isn't....and I'm a pedant!
Hmm....I feel like I've put together a really good case for Flight - but I'm still pretty undecided and haven't actually voted yet! Basically I'm still fighting the urge to vote for Hal, even though I know that there is no jusitication to!
For my mind Jack's lies did the least damage. Although his lies had implications for Martha, most of the consequences were for Jack himself, in terms of his career and his enforced holiday. The lies of both Hal and Flight caused the deaths of innocent people. Despite Flight's good intentions and the good work he wanted to do, not coming clean earlier meant that Merrick and Hinchcliffe were killed by Shine. Flight's lies about his past meant that Shine got away with countless murders. And where do we even start with Hal....
papillon... pamplemousse... bibliothèque... un baiser A lilt in his voice. Every sentence like music... #kisskisskiss A terrible beauty is born. Love me some #Jacksass
I agree with you both on that. Good point about the implications and consequences Rosie.. I do think that the amount of harm caused is relevant, even though not the same as a measure of benevolence. (and voted for Jack by the way.)
I agree....put that way round then Jack wins hands down. His lie did no harm to anyone - except to piss Martha off! Whereas Hal and Flight caused oh so much damage by thier lies...
So,benevolent also means public spirited... Is there an argument that Albert and Jack's lies were to enable them to bring justice / do good work / get the baddies and protect the public? I feel less so for Albert although I could construct s convoluted argument for it. For Jack as you pointed out earlier fifi his actual lie was to Martha to protect his job but on reflection, beneath that lie was the lie of what he had almost done....which in the end... Was nothing wrong. And his motives for having the intention were purely to make sure the baddie got put away. And the baddie in this case truly was a very bad baddie.... And it could have prevented further children being hurt if the other evidence had not come to light.
